This week, I’m excited to have my good friend Paul George back on the show! If you caught our last episode, you’ll know that Paul is not only the founder of The Art of Living but also the author of some fantastic books like “Rethink Happiness” and “Holy Grit.” If you haven’t checked those out yet, I highly recommend you do—they’ve been game-changers for a lot of men, especially in men’s groups.

Find more here 👉 https://www.paulgeorge.la/

or here 👉 https://www.discovertheartofliving.com/

In this episode, Paul and I dive deep into what it really means to be a husband and father. We’re talking about the real stuff—the joys, the struggles, and everything in between. We get personal about our own experiences, from how we navigate the daily challenges of marriage and fatherhood to the importance of having authentic friendships with other men. We both know firsthand how easy it is to fall into the trap of trying to go it alone, but let me tell you, that’s exactly where the enemy wants us.

We also talk about the power of vulnerability. Paul shares how he’s learned to let down his guard and be real, not just with God but with his wife and kids, too. And I open up about some of the hardest things I’ve faced as a husband and father—things that have also turned out to be the greatest blessings in my life. It’s not always easy, but man, it’s worth it.

One of the highlights for me was when we discussed the role of prayer in our lives. The morning we recorded this, Paul and I spent some time just praying for each other—real, honest prayer about the things that weigh on us as men. We realized that the hardest battles we face are often at home, in our roles as husbands and fathers. But that’s also where God is calling us to be the strongest, the holiest.

If you’re a guy who’s struggling in your marriage or feeling the weight of fatherhood, this episode is for you. We’re here to encourage you, to remind you that you’re not alone, and to offer some practical advice on how to move forward with God’s help. So whether you’re listening in the gym, mowing the lawn, or just driving in your car, I hope you’ll find something here that speaks to you.

💡 Don’t forget, Register for the JPIIHealingCenterRestored Men’s Healing Conference here!

 

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✈️ Join us on one of our 2025 pilgrimages:

March 10-15: Visit the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico with Father Zachary, a fantastic priest and friend. This affordable trip is perfectly timed for most school spring breaks.

May 12-23: Join Father Larry and me on a spiritual journey to the Holy Land. Walk in the footsteps of Christ and experience an unforgettable pilgrimage.

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Welcome back to the pew. Everybody. I’m your host, John Edwards. I’m excited to have another week of just a guy in the pew here with you. Thanks for tuning in to another episode this week. We’ve got another treat. My buddy, Paul George is still in town. And so we decided to. Take advantage of the time together and to do another show.

So folks say we’re going to be talking about a lot of different things. If you don’t know who Paul George is, he is the founder of the art of living. He’s the author of several books, rethink happiness and Holy grit. You guys should check those out if you hadn’t yet. There are great helps to a lot of men, a lot of men’s groups use them out there for the formation.

So check that out. Paul is also working with me alongside the JP two healing center and doing healing conferences for men. So if you didn’t catch the last show with Paul, check that out to find out more about that. But Paul, it’s great to still have you here and thanks for being willing to do another show.

Bro. How fun has it been just to hang out in Memphis, eat some good food. Yeah. I don’t know, just be together. It’s been really good. It has, man. It has. I was trying to like, I was trying to bulk you up, man. I was trying to, you look too skinny for me, man. You’re too in shape. I’m trying to put like a little overhang on the front.

No, man, I’m getting old, man. It’s I don’t know. I gotta take care of myself in some ways, but it’s been great. Like we’ve been like planning these conferences and diving in. But I think if you were to like pull the curtain back, what’s really been happening is you and I just been sharing our life story together and spending time together.

And that’s, what’s been really cool. Yeah, I would say the same thing, man. It’s the same thing we talk about why men need men and why men need groups and why men need to. To have real authentic friendships and relationships, right? This is the first time we’ve really been in person together other than, a chance meeting in the airport Yeah, and you know i’ve told you more about myself in the last day and a half than a lot of people that at one point in my life would have never known those things about me.

Yeah. And that’s what’s great when you’re in this place where you’re healing and where you’re growing and you see a brother in the Lord that is also on the same journey and it’s a safe place to be able to talk and to grow in relationship with one another. Yeah. The greatest part of today, like honestly, it’s this morning we were together.

It’s like, how can we pray for each other? A lot of times men are like, What do you do? Sometimes, you can fellowship and have fun. And a lot of your men’s groups, you create these different, nights and experiences. But just to be able to share and pray for each other is like, how can I pray for you and vice versa?

And we just spent time praying for each other, like honest prayer here’s how I really need prayer. In my life and, a lot of what we had talked about and prayed for each other for was just really around our role as husbands and fathers, right? Like when you were sharing like what you needed prayer for, and I was sharing what I needed prayer for.

It really revolved around our vocation as a husband and father, the worry, the stress, the anxiety that sort of circles that vocation. Yeah. And the constant battle that we feel like, and I’m sure all men feel like that they’re fighting each day. Sure. Like how do I love my wife and kids well?

How do I provide? How do I work? Like all these things. It’s just this constant, I don’t know. A lot of times it feels like very heavy. Yeah. Worry and stress and anxiety around it. It is. And a lot of us have been raised to to be a man means to be perfect, right? Like in, in these ideals we have I’ve got to please my coach.

I’ve got to please my dad. I’ve got to have my wife and kids can never know that I’m human. Like they can never see that I worry or stress or that things aren’t always okay. And that’s exactly where the enemy wants you, because then you start to isolate, you start to keep things to yourself.

You don’t tell friends or anybody, and you’re in this constant hamster wheel for perfection. And you never wind up anywhere, right? You’re just running in the same space and nothing ever gets better, right? Cause you’re in that mindset and it’s a mindset that’s very destructive, especially when men are trying to go it alone.

And I often think what if the hardest things that you do in your life or the exact things that God wants you to be doing in your life, I’ll give you an example. So if you were to ask me today, what’s the hardest things you’ve ever done in your life? Okay. Now I can list a lot of things, okay, and go all the way back to, high school and college and all these things that maybe I did well at, or succeeded at, or college sports or whatever.

But if you said, what is the hardest things you’ve ever done in your life? And I say, there are two things that have been the hardest things. And those two hardest things in my life have also been the greatest things in my life. Okay. So they’re the hardest and the greatest at the same time. And that the two hardest things I’ve ever done in my life was to be married, which I still am today.

So my wife, we’ve been married almost 28 years and to be a father. Yeah. Those things are not easy things. Like those are the two hardest things at the same time, the two hardest things that I’ve ever done in my life and I still am doing right. There’s still hard. Sure. Are the two things that are the greatest things in my life.

And it is that place, that tension point where this thing that is so hard is the place where God is calling me to be the greatest, right? And to become the holiest in my life. And there’s this friction point. So I don’t know if you feel that way, like maybe marriage and fatherhood is just really easy for you.

I have no idea. Yeah, no, that’s not the way it is at all. A hundred percent not. And if I said yes, I’m sure my wife would somehow figure out how to throw something through the wall and hit me in the head. She’s yeah, get real. But honestly, like sometimes I feel the easiest part of my life is just sharing Jesus with people, right?

And sometimes getting on here now, we, oftentimes have a lot of outtakes and things like that, trying to get things perfect, but generally it’s very easy for me to say, okay, I’m going to show up here. I’m going to talk to people about Jesus. Doesn’t mean I’m nervous. Doesn’t mean, I still struggle in those things, but I agree with you.

Like a lot of times. When I’m home and I’ve been home since the Eucharistic Congress, like I don’t leave until the end of August and we’re here in the middle of August and you enter back into the home and the family. Where it’s really hard where the rubber meets the road like you can go out on a stage and tell people hey you need To be present.

Hey, you need to spend time with your kids and your wife You need to choose them over yourself But then when you get home and you actually enter into the home and your kids like hey, do you want to watch? Hanging in Montana. No, I freaking don’t like I don’t at all Like I don’t that’s the loud brother, you know Take a hammer to my each one of my toes and watch that but in that moment Are you gonna say Am I going to practice what I preach?

Am I, and you struggle in those things when your wife, like I need things from you that aren’t things that maybe you’re comfortable with, or maybe there, like I need you to listen. My wife works at St. Jude. We were talking about this and it’s easy for me to talk about evangelization because she’s also a Catholic.

She understands the Catholic faith and we can have an easy conversation, but sometimes she needs to talk to me about things. I have no idea how to even begin to spell the word she’s using. And my mind starts to wander and I start to Not pay attention or to quickly try to change the subject or to move when those are the things my wife wants the most.

So yeah, dude, for me, like it’s easy on the road to go out there and speak to men and be there for men and pray and all those things. But that battlefield is really at home. And when I say hard, doesn’t mean it’s not good. Okay. So what I mean is this, is that the nature of our vocation, okay. The very nature of our vocation in marriage and in fatherhood.

Is to help us to grow, to be better men, to become holier. So if you look at the culture today, just the wide culture, not the Catholic cult, just in general, the culture, the divorce rates over 50%, right? 23 percent of men commit adultery, 22 percent women today are foregoing marriage. People are getting married later.

There, there’s a lot of things that just point in the opposite direction of marriage. And family, mainly because I would just say it’s just cause it’s hard. Like people are like, why would I do that? That just, that’s just very hard, right? Like it’s why, because the nature of our vocation is that, it We marry another imperfect person.

Sure. And that imperfect person and my imperfections rub together And God uses that To help us to become a saint, to become a woman. And so when I talk about it, hard, it being hard, like it is the hardest thing you’ll ever do it. And the same thing is going to be the greatest legacy you’ll ever have in your life.

However, many people quit before they get there. They say I’m just going to have a mediocre marriage or mediocre relationship with my kids. This is as good as it gets. This is as great as it gets. It’s not going to get any better. Why? Because. Man, I’ve experienced in my own marriage and fatherhood that everything in my marriage and everything in my role as a father reveals every weakness that I have in my life.

It just, all of it sur comes to the surface, right? Yeah, sure. This is the nature of it. Yeah. Your wife’s gonna look at you and be like, you can’t do that anymore. Yeah. You can’t act that way. Yeah, sure. Or you can go, and vice versa. Or your kids are gonna look at you.

And you’re going to realize like what you said to them or like how you wounded them by what you did or how you acted all that begins to come to the surface, right? And we’re face to face with what we’ve been talking about with this conference is we come face to face with our own brokenness and wounds in our vocation.

And we do one or two things. We run from it or we embrace it and we actually do the hard thing and we become the person that God wants us to be. Yeah. No, I agree a hundred percent, man. It’s, there’s so much to talk about in all of this. Because at the same time, like you see, you’re talking about marriage and guys like not even giving it a chance Or, getting out of it quickly or getting married later.

And, I often tell people like marriage has become not an, I do, but we’ll we’ll see, it’s a, it’s not a covenant. It’s a contract. Yeah. Let’s try it. Yeah. And if I, if I don’t like you and I remember like. When this really hit me because people ask me like what’s one of the first things you realize in marriage Or what’s one of the hardest things you like hit you first and i’m like how selfish you are Just like how because especially if you’ve been living like as you’re called to like separate, Dwellings and you’re dating the right way and all those things and then all of a sudden you’re married and you’re living with this Person that you loved easily when you saw her like a couple nights a week or whatever and now it’s okay I’m moving all your stuff out of this room and putting my stuff in here You And I remember one time specifically, it was like right after Angela and I got married, we’re back from the honeymoon.

And I had always gone to this bar around the corner with buddies of mine, like old college buddies. Now this was also in the midst of all my struggles, but we had this we’re going to show up, play golden deep golf for an hour and a half on Tuesday. And that’s what we do. So I started to help the door.

I was like, I’ll see you in a little bit. And she’s like, where are you going? I said, I’m going to the bar to meet John and Matt and dah. And she’s like, why? And I said, because it’s Tuesday. And she’s not anymore. It’s not Tuesday. And I said, yeah, it is. It’s Tuesday on the calendar. And she’s no, like we’re married.

I don’t want you out at a bar. It’s not that I don’t trust you, but like, why don’t you want to be with me? I’m like, I want to be with you, but I also want to be with them. And it’s this call out of there’s a commitment and a change you’ve made in your life. And this is the struggle that a lot of men faces.

Like I want this, but I also still want to be and do what I want to do. And that’s never going to work in a marriage or in a relationship with your children. Yeah. It’s interesting because when we get married, like we’re two individual people, scripture says the two become one flesh. We, we become one with the other person, yet we still have this individuality in that marriage.

Like we’re still unique. We still have a personality. We’re still male, right? All those things stay, but yet we forgo. A lot of our freedoms for the sake of the better of the two. And that’s really hard. Like I have to forgo some of the things that I feel like maybe are holding me in bondage. And yet when you actually embrace that, you’re actually set free even more in marriage, right?

You hear all these things and all of these things, all the old ball and chain and, all these things that are such a negative spin derogatory. Why? Because the two haven’t come together. And this deep mutuality of what’s good for the other. So they hold onto their independence and it’s two single people trying to just live as companions instead of letting go of.

Their life and embracing the new life together. Now, look, we say all that, but the reality is like every mistake, every wound, every thing that, that has been negative has come to the surface in my marriage. Sure. Like I, there’s nothing that you can hide, right? Like always say this, if you’re going to get married, the best thing that you can do is take all your luggage and try to downsize it into a carry on.

Okay. Because you’re not going to get rid of it at all, but when you take that carry on. You put it in the middle of the living room and your spouse unzips it and everything pops out. You’re like, Oh, you piss and this. And you’re like, either you’re like I don’t want to talk about that or it begins to reveal this deeper, ability to look at your life and receive some deeper healing because of the nature of the relationship, so there’s two things like in my life and I’m sure, and you were talking about it, that have brought the greatest amount of healing, but have also at the same time revealed My greatest mistakes and wounds, and that’s my role as a father and as a husband, those two things, right? Yeah, I always say it’s like a double punch.

Like when you get married, things come to the surface. You’re like, Ooh, I thought that was gone. And then you become a father and you’re like, Ooh, I didn’t think I was like that, and I even hear a lot of times I hear my things, my father said to me and the way he spoke to me that I was like, I’ll never speak to my kids like that.

And I’ll hear it. I’m like, and then I get so disgusted with myself. Dude, you literally, you know what that feels like, what that short temper made you feel like, this and that, and look what you’ve just done, like you promised never to do that. And then the devil gets in all that. And even like what you said with your wife, you’re making the jokes about ball and chain there’s truth in every joke, right? And so people say things like ha, I’m laughing it off. But there’s resentment there. There’s some resentment in that of you’ve taken freedoms from me. But the thing is, when we go into marriage, we’re supposed to offer ourselves willingly.

And I want to give my life for yours. And you see so many men today that are, we talked about a little bit on the last episode, they’re like, Losing themselves in video games and all these things and they’re lining up for days or hours in advance before the next marvel avengers movie comes out or whatever And what are they looking for?

They’re looking for adventure. They’re looking for sacrifice They’re looking for this heroic virtue in this way to live a life that makes them feel Like I can be a hero. I can be something more But so often as humans like we look for these grandos Moments of that. But what God is offering us is that in our marriage, every single day in these small moments, it’s hard to keep those goggles on all the time.

But it’s like saying, I want to be patient. Lord, give me patience. And what does the Lord do? He gives you opportunities to be patient. And how many times did we fail those tests, right? Like those pop quizzes or whatever. But yeah, like marriage and especially with children too, I literally will say I can’t wait to get off this plane.

Like why did my plane get canceled? I can’t wait to be home. I can’t believe I’m going to miss a night with my kids. And then I’ll literally be in the house where they’re like, Hey dad, I want to talk to you for a second. I’m busy right now. Yeah. And the Lord’s here’s your kid. And they love you and you love them.

And you said you want this, but why aren’t you partaking? Cause it’s hard, man. It is hard. We don’t, sometimes we just don’t want to do hard things. There, there’s two things that come to mind and look, I could, we could do a hundred shows on The amount of like healing opportunities that marriage has done in my life.

But it’s either come to mind just like that boom is Gretchen and I had gotten in an argument once and I’d come home from a trip. So we hadn’t talked in a while and we got in this argument and I, we always agree that we wouldn’t leave. Like we would, but I had to leave.

To bring one of my kids to a practice. Okay. So like we get in this RV, there’s no resolution to, and I’m like, Oh, I got to take so and so hop in the truck and drive them to practice and I’m driving home and this thought popped in my mind, she’s going to be gone when I get home. Now she had never given me one reason in our marriage to believe that, my parents divorced and when things got hard, like as hard as it got for them, like

Like they just they left. Sure. And that’s their own story and whatever. And but it there subconsciously I never knew that lie was in the back of my head. Yeah. And I started crying on the way home. And I literally had convinced myself that when I drove up at home, she would be gone.

Yeah. Talk about a lie, right? Yeah, sure. So marriage was bringing up this lie I didn’t even know was there. And so when I got home, of course she hadn’t left. And I looked at her, I was like, I thought you’d be going. And she looked at me like I was crazy. Yeah, and she looked at me and it was like, I’m never going to leave you no matter what.

And it just began to rewire this lie inside of my head. And it was like this opportunity even to embrace that that, that truth and that lie that was like happening, or just be like, I was joking nah, I wouldn’t really, like I’m going to pretend like that never happened.

Yeah. And it was a I, and I say that in just, but it led me down a path of like deep healing around abandonment. And like authentic. Love that I had never experienced in my marriage. Yeah. And like our marriage started to get a little bit deeper. The more that I became more vulnerable, those healing moments, the other one that came to mind was it was one Christmas and because, I grew up in a family, it was divorce, like holidays were just like different, they’re all over the place, shoveled around from house to house and things like that.

And my parents love me. I have a good relationship with them, but like the separation and divorce, like it just was, so I grew up just not really loving the holidays. So I get married though. Like no kids. You’re like, Oh, we have the hollow. I can hide during Christmas. And as we had kids, it was like, Oh, there’s all this joy around Christmas and subconscious.

I’d be like, who has fun in Christmas? Yeah. That’s crazy. Why is everybody in my house? Joyful. This is silly. So I’d wake up, set up the gifts, and then I just enter into the background subconsciously, not even knowing this was happening. And by the third or fourth Christmas with kids, I don’t know.

I was being grumpy. Probably. I think I was not knowing I was like all subconscious. And I know guys who are listening to this could probably relate in some way, shape, or form how you’re making these subconscious decisions that you don’t even know where they are. Yeah. Oh, you talk, we, and I talk about this, how St.

Paul says, I do what I hate. I don’t even know why I do it. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So Gretchen looks at me and she goes, I don’t know what’s going on, but you have to figure it out. And the first thing I wanted to do, and you talk about this too, with your own vulnerability and your own story and your brokenness is the first thing I want to do was blame her.

I got to figure it out. This is your fault. Yeah. What about you? And I felt that coming. Sure. Like I was just going to point the finger and as it was coming, I was like, it just, him is she’s dead, right? There’s no doubt. Like this issue has nothing to do with her. It’s me, man.

And I sat in my chair, it was Christmas morning. And I just said, Lord, just show me why I’m like this. Yeah. I don’t even know man, all these memories from my childhood just started popping up. And like the face of Jesus was right in the middle of them. Yeah. And dude, I’m talking about I just wept.

Yeah. I just, the presence of God, like just in that moment of vulnerability of receiving this sort of this memory and the Lord’s presence. I, it was like this moment, but without being married, that moment would have never happened. Yeah. Or if I would’ve just cast the blame on her, I would just pretend to like, and I would just kept acting that way for every holiday for the rest of my life, even though subconsciously I didn’t want to be that way.

Sure. And I remember those kinds of things in my in when I was struggling in my marriage and. Angel and I are not perfect by any means today. We all still have our tats and the places where we’re still trying to give to one another and to, to give of ourselves. But yeah, I remember a lot of times.

Always wanting to blame her but no one like deep down inside like dude, you’re stealing money from your family You’re doing drugs all the time you’re basically half drunk most of the time and you’re blaming her like the problems in your marriage are her I knew I had those issues so easy. Yeah, it was it’s like what’s her problem?

And i’m like over here snorting my eighth line and like drinking 10 beers and you know Smoking a pack of half cigarettes and like why doesn’t she just lighten up and learn to live and relax and it’s just No, man, like I knew the whole time there was a problem, but subconsciously, like you’re saying, like you just blame it on somebody else cause it’s easier.

I’m not changing. You need to accept me the way I am. And it’s the same thing like we do as men in a lot of different things, like we would rather fight the battles that are out there than the ones in our own heart. And that’s what marriage and fatherhood will point to quicker than anything, is your brokenness.

But then the devil will be in your ear going, you’re going to let them talk to you like that? Do they not appreciate all you do for them? And then all of a sudden you’re going, yeah. And you’re silently going yeah, that’s right. I don’t deserve this. And the next thing what’s happening, your marriage is falling apart.

Your relationship with your children is falling apart. And it’s all because we’re listening to these wrong voices and really failing a lot of the tests. And I don’t want people to get depressed by that, but God has given us these opportunities again and again to grow and to heal.

And then that’s dude, once you realize those, you and I were talking about that earlier, once you realize. Okay, I made the right decision this time. And I made the right decision next time. And there’s a joy and a peace now in surrender where so many men even hear the word surrender and it’s nah, no way.

That’s, that is giving up everything that is submission. That is that. And it’s not what it is at all. It’s actually learning to live is what surrender invites you to. Yeah. There’s good news to all this, right? Because there’s been no greater place that you and I. Have received authentic love that are then in our family.

Okay. So the flip side is like No one has loved me better than my wife and my kids Even in times where I felt like I didn’t deserve it that lie inside of me, right? Yeah, or I even didn’t deserve it like because I was just like I would say my wife would say for the first 10 years of my marriage.

She didn’t really fully know who I was Yeah, and I didn’t even know that I was withholding Emotionally from her I think guys are slower to get to that vulnerability stage But if we never get to that place of vulnerability our marriage stays stuck like you stay stuck in this relationship With our kids, even, I have adult kids now as well.

Like we, we have to move past that. I will always say this line. Like my wife would look at me early on in our marriage, first 10 years, just say, and she would say I feel like you don’t need me. And I w and I would say back to her check this out. I would say I actually don’t need you.

Oh, wow. Like I can take care of myself. I love you and you love me, but I don’t need you. If something happened to you or whatever, like I can cook and I can clean and I can do my own clothes and I can go to work, like I don’t need you. There was a lie in the back of my head. This is, like I’m self sufficient.

I can take care of myself, like when things got rough in my family, like we just fend for ourselves, we just take care of us from your childhood. Yeah. And look, a lot of that just taught me to be very independent and it got me to where I was. Like there’s not, there’s a flip side to all, like God helps us through it all.

But I would say back to her, I really don’t need you. And I didn’t realize what I was saying, I would say that I was being very practical as a guy. Sure. But how much did that probably hurt for her? It wasn’t until the day that I realized that I did need her. I needed her to love. this person inside of me that was very hard for me to love.

And I remember telling her that one day and it was like, we had a breakthrough. I need you to love me like this little boy, this broken person, like just think about your story. And I’m so intrigued by like how well, Your wife was willing to love you when you were at your worst man in a prison cell.

Yeah. You know what I’m saying? She had every excuse to be like, I’m not loving that guy. Yeah. She leave, take everything. Yeah. I’ve thought about that a million times and sometimes at the time it didn’t like after I got home and all those things, it didn’t feel like love. Because she was angry, she was hurt and everything else, but she didn’t leave.

She didn’t leave. And I can’t tell you how many people have come up to me at conferences and things like that. And they’re like, you’re lucky my wife left me, like my wife, and I feel so sorry for that, but like in, in the midst of these things, You’re right like women have this incredible ability to love like no matter the circumstances And I didn’t I don’t deserve any of that and trust me like Tom’s right where I lose my temper I’m short or I’m tired after two days of Missionary work or ministry work and stuff and I come home and I snap and you know in the moment again It’s easy to try to justify yourself.

But man, as soon as I get in a room by myself I’m like, what are you doing man? Like that, you should never have anything negative to say that woman ever again, like in your life for what she’s done for you. And it’s not like a submissive kind of thing. It’s like you were shown a great mercy that she didn’t have to show you that really God showed you through her and has helped you now to be more merciful in that way that, that you may not have been at the time.

And it’s grown in our relationship and our marriage. It takes a lot of work though. And it’s a constant reminder of. Of what are we here for? We’re not for each we’re not here for ourselves, we’re here for each other. And that, and every day sometimes we, I used to look at fights and go like, why do we keep fighting?

And now look at them, like when we have these little tips, like the Lord’s still trying to do something in me. Yeah. It’s revealing something. Yeah. And that’s a good thing. And that’s the good news of all this is like what comes to the surface is an opportunity for healing and growth and freedom in our life.

Yeah. Instead of shoving it down, dude, when we shove things down, it’s going to come out of any hole, any orifice we got, like mainly in our heart, our hearts will become cold And hardened. And that’s not what God wants. Your wife didn’t leave because of grace, dude. God gave her the grace to stay.

So without God, like marriage makes zero sense. Staying makes zero sense. We’re only in a contract. We’re not in a covenant because it’d be in a covenant. It takes a huge amount of grace to say, I’m going to love this person no matter what happens. And so without grace, like I, I don’t stay either.

Sure. My wounds just say, Hey, let’s roll out, dude. Yeah. I’m going to be self sufficient and on my own and I don’t need another person. Like I, st. Ignatius has this just real quick line. He just says do nothing without consulting God. Yeah. And I think, okay, a little TIF.

A little, there’s something, let me just, let me ask God about it. Okay, God let me consult you. Like, why did I get angry today about this? What, why’d my feelings get hurt or why did I withhold this? Let me just ask God. And I guarantee you, if you ask God to reveal, like he will very gently show you why you do what you do and how you can get better.

And what helped me too, is I started to ask him very similarly. I would ask him like, Lord, I would stop and I would imagine like God was in the room in the conversation and this is his daughter and how am I treating his daughter and would he treat her that way? And that, and it just made me start to realize I need to look at her the way God looks at her, with this great love and this in no matter the imperfections that I have, she has, whatever we look past those, just like God looks past them in us.

Like I’m sure every day, God’s Oh man, again, like I can’t believe you. He’s never going to leave you. He’s never going to abandon you, but there are times of disappointment. And so I look at myself sometimes that way when I really, something, I messed something up or. Or I go too far with something or I just simply realize now more than I used to like dude, you’re really being selfish Like this is nobody’s problem, but your own, like you, you want to be happy with your family.

You don’t want, moments like these then the change has to take place in you. And even with my kids, like I, I would tell Anzal, I was like, man, they just, they tell you everything. They don’t tell me anything. And she’s John, I pick them up most of the time. I take them to school most of the time.

I help them with their homework. Like I know you’re working and you’re busy and stuff, but this is why they share these things with me. And so a while back, like I just got the idea. I said, look, we don’t have to spend a bunch of money or anything because we don’t have a lot, but. Hey kids, why don’t like once a month y’all pick something you want to do with me?

And so like the first month allison wanted to go to an escape room And I didn’t think we were ever going to get out of that place because i’m not very smart and she’s 11 But like we did get out Caitlin wanted to go to see a movie jacob wanted to go get ice cream And like I just I made the time to go do those things and what I saw happening was just like But my children, it’s not so much like we did something.

What they saw was like, dad wants to be with me and dad cares and dad’s listening and dad’s present and those things changed our relationship. It wasn’t like we were ever like in a bad spot. I love my children, they love me, but like I was literally lamenting in rooms and in prayer in private going my kids are, they’re going to be gone in five years.

They’re going to be gone in seven years. They’re going to be gone in three years. And it’s yeah, but they’re here right now, like in God’s offering you that time right now, stop thinking, cause that’s what the devil always wants us to do, right? Is to, to lament over the past and to fret the future because God’s in the present and the moment that God gives us with our families in the present moment.

And so often that’s one of his first lines of attack is to try to get you to pull you all the way from those things and those moments. Sometimes I remind myself, just go outside and sit with Angela and don’t think about what you got to do in an hour. Don’t think what you got to do in 20 minutes.

Don’t think about what you got to do tomorrow. Look at your wife in the eyes and tell her you love her, hold her hand and sit there and just tell me about your day. And there’s probably some guy on the radio on the car. We have to have a rec right now. Oh God, that sounds horrible. But if you want a better relationship with those you love, you have to be willing to let the other parts of yourself die for the parts that want to grow.

And this is unique to us. Husbands and fathers, because there’s certain characteristics that we take on that represent God. Yeah. Okay. And one of the characteristics and virtues that God, the father has is that he pursues, he’s a pursuer of the people he loves, which is everyone, right? So even after the fall in Genesis, God goes looking, he goes looking, Jesus comes in search for us, the good shepherd.

What for us as men, like We take on that characteristic as a father and a husband in this, in the fact that we are called to be pursuers of our wives and kids. If I say that what is the opposite of that is where men struggle the most. We want to talk to men when they’re struggling in their marriage, they just, they feel rejected.

So they no longer. They no longer pursue their wife or their kids because their kids have said, I hate you. Or their wife has been hurt and has pulled away. And so the rejection is so deep for us as men that what ends up happening is we stop pursuing. The people were supposed to pursue the most. I remember when my oldest daughter is married now.

And when she was first born, I was pushing her in a stroller. I was by myself. We were living in Phoenix, Arizona. And this random dude just walks up, looks in the strollers, older guy. And he goes, wow, I see you’re raising a teenager. And I was like, excuse me? I was like, no, it’s six months. And he just looked at me.

He goes, It starts now and he walked away and I got home and I started thinking about what like what was that? What was he talking about? And I remember one thing is a teenager just doesn’t wake up one day as a teenager like you raise a teenager when the kid is like Oh, like you’re like, like depositing, these everything you do or don’t time, right?

Yeah, so I started doing these dates with my kids, you know throughout you know So that when they were teenagers And they pulled away That I had the ability to keep pursuing them when they stiff arm me sure, right? That’s the characteristic that God wants for us as men to push through the rejection.

Right? And to pursue. Yeah. Like when we see something that we want, guys go get it. Yeah. Like when we see a job or we see something like we want to accomplish or a hobby, we’re like, I’m going to do that. Now remember the day when you wanted to ask your wife out? Oh yeah. And if she would, and you would walk up to her and she was like, no, I’m not going on a date with you.

But you’re in your mind, you’re like, I’m going to marry that woman. Yeah. You just keep pursuing. So we push through this rejection from our kids, even our wives, and we become pursuers of them. And on the back end of that is so much grace, so much purpose that these relationships begin to take off in ways that we never thought they could.

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Whenever I get out of my own self and whenever I really am like, I want to do things. To make Angela happy. I want to do things to make my kids feel loved and go out of my way to do those things and continue to make that a priority in my life. You’re a hundred percent right, man.

Like it just things change in the tone changes in the smile changes. Like the things that it’s so crazy because it is the definition of crazy doing the same thing and expecting different results, right? We think, no, I’ll just keep living the way I want. And then one day my wife is magically going to be like, I love you and I want to kiss you and I want to take you to bed and I want to make you your favorite meal every hour of the day.

And I want to. And that’s never going to happen. Think about it. And the funny thing is we think we get so deep into our own thoughts and what we want, the way we want it. Like we never go if I was, if my wife. Was treating me the way that I you know that I’m treating her what I want to do any of those things with Her like no because again, I would feel not loved.

I would feel not important. I would feel Second to many other things But we still expect okay We’ll get both get over that right and continue to just you’ll be what I need you to be When in fact, what we need to be saying is, how can I be what you need me to be? And that’s the call of Christ, right?

Just pick up your cross and follow me. Lay down your life and follow me, right? Husbands lay down your life for your wives like Christ laid down his for the church like that St. Paul. This is what he’s saying. And it’s not a metaphor. It’s not a, it’s not a novel idea. It’s the key to happiness, right?

It’s to simply say, And to realize I’m pursuing happiness by my own means, by my own desires, my own wants of what I probably don’t even really want inside. But I’ve been told by society, the world, the devil, whatever, this will make me happy. But instead, it’s this vulnerability.

It’s this humility. It’s this surrender to what God wants and to what your wife needs and what your children need. And then you’re like, at the end of the day, I don’t need anything else. I don’t need that 250, 000 a year job because I have a family that loves me and I love them. And it’s about that.

Like I I’ve, I don’t think I’ve told you this since you’ve been here, but I tell people all the time dude, I love to go do the Lord’s work. But the minute I’m in that airport, I’m already ready to be home. Yeah. A hundred percent. I want to be home because that’s where my heart is now. And I missed you want to get real?

Dude, I missed. The first freaking six years of my son’s life and I missed the first three years of my little girl’s life and then I spent several years after that angry and hurt and confused and I’ll never get that time back and that’s hard to live with right? That’s hard to live with But God even then is saying yeah That didn’t go well, but what are you gonna do today?

Yeah, what are you gonna do right now, right? What I’m inviting you to more. I think that word is so powerful though, man, because Like here’s the other characteristic of God, right? Is that God? Speaks truth. Yeah. Okay. So in areas of our life where we’ve failed God is so loving and grace filled. That he’s willing To speak truth into those lies that we believe and to show his love, which is someone who loves you are willing to tell you the truth, right?

So if someone’s listening or you have a story like you and I and there’s been, mistakes you’ve made in your marriage or you regret the time lost with your kids. A lot of times guys stop pursuing cause they say it’s too late or the damage is done or they’ll never forgive me. And if God’s characteristic is that he can go to his kids and speak truth, And to his loved ones and speak truth, then that characteristic is true for us that we can go to those people and speak truth.

Hey, honey, I am so sorry for the times that I have hurt you and I have just dug my heels in and haven’t changed. I want to get better. Hey, son or daughter. I missed some time, but I want to make that time up. I’m sorry. Like it’s never too late. Like that’s that is a very true.

And if we take on that virtue of pursuing and entering into speaking truth to the lies that we believe or the things that we’ve done wrong to the people who love us the most. Dude, I’m telling you to the very last breath you take, God can redo anything, right? So any man out there is like sitting in regret or like it’s too late or I’ve been rejected or I’ve done so many things wrong, dude, man, no way, man.

Because like your greatest legacy is this vocation. And so to your very last breath, you have an opportunity to love and to love well. And that’s the thing that what I’ve come to find out is. Like I’ve said, we went, I went on a fraternist thing with Jason and all those guys with Jacob one time.

And, we were like, slaughtering a pig and doing all that stuff and shooting guns and all that cool stuff. But one of the nights, it was like, you’re going to sit here and say something to your son, that you think they might want to hear. And I didn’t even know what I was going to say, here I’m a speaker and all this stuff and like usually have no loss for words and I’m like, what am I going to say?

And so all these dads are like just opening up and. Everyday guys just pouring out their soul and Jacob was sitting across the fire like he wouldn’t even sit by me He was sitting, it wasn’t cuz he was angry. He’s just sat over there And I started to speak to him and it was getting dark and could barely see him But I just speak from the heart and I started to tell him like I’m so sorry like I wasn’t always treated the best by my father, and I’m not trying to make excuses, but whether I like it or not, some of those tendencies have rubbed off on me and I’m short with you and I treat you ways that I thought I would never treat my son and I say things and I don’t give you the time and I’m short with you and I just, that’s never the relationship I wanted to have with you.

And I just started like crying and saying this stuff and these people are probably like, this guy’s like an evangelist. He’s over here. Sounds like the worst dad in the world. And next thing I just see the silhouette coming around the fire and Jacob just dove into my arms and he whispered in my ears.

I didn’t think you knew. I didn’t think you knew. And he said, dad, I love you and I forgive you. And it’s one of the most powerful moments I’ve had in my life since things changed was just one, the love and the forgiveness of God. I saw through my son His willingness to go oh my gosh, I didn’t even think you knew like I just thought you know It was just something I would I was he was constantly forgiving me in his life and just thought like he doesn’t know any better He’s gonna continue to be like this such compassion for you.

Yeah and that’s the thing. It just proves what you’re saying is God doesn’t want broken families. He doesn’t want distance. He doesn’t want division. He doesn’t want divides. He wants us to be whole because that’s the greatest sign of his love. And he doesn’t want us to be perfect. Yeah. That’s the lie from the pit of hell is that you’re trying to create this perfect family.

Yeah. That looks great on the outside. And we get these perfect job and house and it just is yeah, like Facebook pictures. Yeah. But like this idea that there is perfection in a marriage and in fatherhood is a lie. Yeah. Like where we get to the place where it becomes fruitful. Is when we embrace our imperfection and our brokenness and become vulnerable because there’s deep intimacy with our spouse and our kids and that vulnerability, because then there’s love and mercy and forgiveness and joy.

Like you see what I’m saying? That’s where it becomes fruitful because the whole nature of it, as we talked at the beginning is not about perfection. It’s not even about happiness. It’s about holiness. It’s about becoming whole, right? And so in our greatest moments of vulnerability, I am so sorry.

Like I, like our kids are so easy to forgive and love and have compassion for our spouse, yeah. And that’s something I always make sure to do now too, is when we’re like, I used to be the king of, I’m sorry. Like three seconds. I’m sorry. And it’s I didn’t even, you didn’t even think about that.

You said, I’m sorry. Cause your wife ever looked at you. Why? Yeah, exactly. And you’re just trying to make it better. And Angela and I are totally two different, she needs to go to target for an hour and a half. Like I can walk out of a room and walk back and go, Hey, I’m sorry for that.

Like I didn’t, but what I started to realize where my was mom, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean that. So we’re falling on deaf ears because I was so quick to, to offer that. And even my children knew dad’s just saying this to get over to make himself feel better. And so I started really being more.

intentional about okay, you feel bad and you want to feel better. It’s like sometimes what we can do in confession, like you do something and you’re not really looking to amend your life. You’re looking for a cheap car wash. I just want to feel better, feel dirty. I don’t want to feel dirty anymore.

And so that’s how sometimes we can receive our wives and kids. And when we’ve done something wrong, we’re just like you said, you want to shrug it off and let’s just think about something else. But what I started to do was go and said, I have a little prayer station in my room and I’m like, all right, I know all you want to do is go out there so you feel better, but sit with God, sit here and listen to the Father.

Just ask Him. Yeah, and ask Him, like you were talking about it, what did I do, like, why do I keep doing this? Why do I I don’t want to just, I’m tired of just throwing out I’m sorry’s I don’t mean. I want you to take me to this place so that I can actually apologize. Not say I’m sorry but apologize and ask for forgiveness.

And there’s a difference between saying I’m sorry And will you please forgive me? That’s a different humble ask. Like I’m at your mercy to forgive. I can’t make you do that. And I would love to have your forgiveness because I understand what I’ve done wrong. And I want to come to you and make things right versus I’m sorry.

Just get it, and that was something that really helped me in our marriage. Yeah. So this is, we’re planning this conference and spending time together. One of the main themes around healing, but around healing, Our understanding is as a husband and father, I think part of doing this show is just to encourage men in their vocation, not only don’t give up, but to know that God’s got more and that through the hardness and the hard work.

God’s got freedom and purpose and healing in your marriage and father. And it’s never too late. Like the never, it’s all in front of you. And I think we’re saying this because we’re just sitting in it as witnesses to the day to day. We’re not like, Hey, we got the no we’re just really trying to enter into the hard, so that we can. Have, the marriage and family that, that God wants, and it is through the hard that there’s fruit, not like rejecting it. And we were really just want to encourage men in that work. Yeah. And I even, and that’s the thing. Like we’ve been given a gift, right?

You and I didn’t figure all this out on our own. Somebody else helped us. Just one person that both of us, Dr. Bob I love that man. And I know you do too, but Bob, I remember I called him one time. Cause Angel and I, things were going well, and I don’t remember what happened, but something went sideways.

And he got really nasty, just and I was at the point of it’s never going to get better. Like, when is it ever going to get better? And so I called him, I’m like, Bob I feel like such a hypocrite and I don’t know how to, fix this. And I’m so sick of this. And of course Bob was like, we, if you’ll buy the plane ticket, we got an unveil this week and come and we couldn’t go, it was like a thousand dollars a plane ticket and all this stuff.

But I said, Bob, I feel like a hypocrite. I just like, all I do is tell men how to fix things or how to be better. And I can’t do it myself. I’ll never forget. He said to me, John, try being a marriage counselor for 33 years and be on the verge of divorce for most of that time. And he’s given me permission to share that.

He was written about it in his books, but he really spoke to me. I’m like, man, this guy, he’s written all these books that are helping so many people, but he. He still struggles too. And I think that’s an important thing. And what we’ve always tried to do in this ministry and on the show is to present ourselves as what we are broken human beings, right?

Who understand there’s redemption that I understand there’s hope, there’s grace, there’s mercy, there’s a better life. But we also understand that it takes a lot of work and it takes what really being a man is being a man is willing to do the hard things is willing to take the hard knocks to, to go through things so that your wife and your children don’t have to.

I’m willing. And that’s. Back to the Marvel thing, the hero stuff, like that diving on the grenade, like the Captain America movie, right? You got the skinny guy. And all these muscle bound guys doing thousands of pushups and the guy throws a grenade in the middle of them and only one of them jumped on it.

And that was a scrawny kid that wouldn’t have gotten in the military. It wasn’t that soldier serum or anything else that made him special. It was the type of person that he became. And That’s the goal for all of us as God longs for us to be these great stewards of our marriage to be these great Protectors of our family and to play the role what a gift it even is to share the name father with the father and it’s a gift and it’s a privilege and God doesn’t expect perfection he knows that we can’t do it.

That’s the thing and it’s no God wants me to be perfect God knows you’re not perfect. He made you broken and he still chose to make you. What does that tell you? What do you, what he thinks about it, but he’s there to help us through all these things, Paul. And ultimately that’s what we’re trying to do in this ministry.

And why I mentioned Dr. Bob and all of that is someone has done something for us. Christ has done something through Bob and other people in our lives that we couldn’t do for ourselves. And so how can we be best be a gift is to try to pass on what we’ve learned, but also. To admit to people that like, we still struggle too.

Yeah. And look with our wounds and our sin our trauma there’s two ways to go. Either we repeat it and it becomes a generational curse and sin or we have it redeemed. Yep. And one of the characteristics of Jesus, he’s got many, but is that he boldly and courageously took on the beam of the cross.

And broke the generational curse of sin. He took it upon his shoulders and he gave his life. Okay. Yeah. And for us as men, like one of the greatest things that we can do, one of the most heroic things is to take on the sin and the trauma and the generational curses that have been handed on to us and give them to Jesus and let him redeem them and break them so that we don’t pass that on to the next generation of our own children and our families and our marriage.

Yeah. But we don’t do it ourselves. We just give God permission to take it and redeem it, and that’s the beauty of it. So the work is his we’re just have to surrender to that. And we gotta be. Clay in the hands of the potter, man. That’s it. It’s just Lord, have your way with me.

And Paul, that’s something that we’re going to be helping men do from now on together and these men’s healing conferences, the first one starting in November the 14th and 16th at Ann Arbor at Christ the King, as we mentioned on the previous time we were together registrations there on the JP two healing center website.

So you can go to JP two. Which is I, it’s not the number two, it’s J P I healing center. org. Go to events and you can find restored there. We’re going to do the first one there. And then we’re going to have many more, I imagine, because people know they need healing. Men are more open to it now more than ever.

But folks, I just want to invite you, whether you’re able to make it to one of those events or not. Whatever we’ve talked about here today and what Paul has shared in our own stories, like I hope it inspires you to really take a good look at your life and to sit down. And if, if there’s struggles in your marriage.

to start thinking about it. Where’s your responsibility in it? Where are you contributing to the issues in your marriage? If there’s issues with your children to look at it from the other side of the equation, from the other side of the person, from the other person, right? That’s how we become a gift when we stop thinking of ourselves and we start to offer ourselves back to the other and looking at things from another perspective besides our own.

So Paul, as we close here, I just want to give you an opportunity to any final thoughts you got and to share more about where people can find you in your work. Yeah. Easy to find me just paulgeorge. la and then I’ll link to like our ministry stuff and website, the art of living, things like that.

But really, honestly, it’s just been great journeying with you and being, having these conversations. This conversation, we had, it happened off camera. Off air. Yeah so we’re just inviting other guys into it. And that’s the encouragement is for all the men out there to realize that you’re not alone, like to embrace the life that God has right for you right now.

And that tomorrow is better than today. If you just move forward with him and he’ll bring the peace and the joy and the healing, the purpose and the grace, everything that you need, but it does take us embracing, the reality of it and the hard work. Yeah. And that’s the encouragement. Yeah. For all the men out there.

Amen. Guys, now it’s time to practice, right? Now you take it, you pray with it, wherever you are, stop, if you’re in the gym, the lawnmower, in the car, pull over, cut the lawnmower off, put down the weights and just say a quick prayer to God to come further into your life and to help you see these blind spots, these places of wounding, these places of that you need healing and invite them into it for the good of yourself, for the family and for the world.